{"id":744,"date":"2024-05-03T12:01:28","date_gmt":"2024-05-03T12:01:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/simonfokt.org\/?p=744"},"modified":"2024-07-02T09:36:13","modified_gmt":"2024-07-02T09:36:13","slug":"why-do-men-care-about-body-counts-so-much","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/simonfokt.org\/index.php\/2024\/05\/03\/why-do-men-care-about-body-counts-so-much\/","title":{"rendered":"Why Do Men Care About \u2018Body Counts\u2019 So Much?"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

I hate this term. I\u2019d rather talk about being more sexually experienced or having had many lovers.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Many men have very strong feelings about dating women who have had sex with more than a handful of guys. They can have preferences, for sure, but what do those preferences say about them? Is this a good preference to have?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

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I am not here to call such men horrible, fragile or toxic, or talk about how this affects women. If that\u2019s what you\u2019re after, go read other authors.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I am here to say that the reason behind this \u2018preference\u2019 is a worry that\u2019s just as valid as any other emotion. Many guys keep it hidden and suffer in silence. But as with any emotions, we need to take charge of it and be in control. I feel way stronger since I learned to do it myself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This worry hides behind a veneer of \u2018rationality,\u2019 so I will start by stripping it away with logical arguments. By the end, you will see the truth underneath and know what to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Before I dive in, full disclosure. I have slept with a lot of people myself, I am part of a sex-positive community in the most sex-positive city in Europe, and I have been in long-term non-monogamous relationships for over a decade.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If this makes you want to disagree without reading, your choice. But my arguments are just as good, whoever I am. Some principles stay the same. They certainly allowed me to have great relationships and sex life, and they apply to people who want a traditional family just as much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But as many young men apparently want non-monogamy, maybe you\u2019re on board, too:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

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YouGov 2023, How many Americans prefer non-monogamy in relationships?<\/a><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

If you\u2019re still reading, let\u2019s go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

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#NotAllMen<\/h1>\n\n\n\n

I stumbled upon this article<\/a> recently and I think it\u2019s a good case study. <\/a>Like many in this discussion,\u00a0the author\u00a0makes some valid points. Many people on the dating scene seem like they\u2019re chasing a unicorn and many of them are women. Many seem to have long and unrealistic checklists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I would add that the commodification of dating championed by dating apps is the main culprit. Influencers who explicitly recommend it don\u2019t help. People literally treat dating like shopping. It is not healthy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Like many in this discussion,\u00a0the author\u00a0makes some pretty unjustified generalisations, too.\u00a0Starting from the central one:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What do men expect from women then?
Don\u2019t be a slut.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Harsh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

OK, let\u2019s warm up on this one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do all men expect that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well, #NotAllMen. None of the men in my community do. Few in non-monogamous relationships do and trust me, there are many of us around the world (12% in the US<\/a>). Many monogamous men also don\u2019t think it\u2019s appropriate for them to have any expectations in this respect, so they don\u2019t.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Still, we can honestly say that many <\/strong>men expect that from women. I\u2019d even say: the majority. Maybe 80%. Don\u2019t quote me on the numbers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

(Note I am writing about the Global North here. In other cultures this will be different.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

#NotAllWomen<\/h1>\n\n\n\n

The main argument usually goes: Women shouldn\u2019t sleep around because one day they will wake up wanting a husband but no man \u2014 scratch that \u2014 most men won\u2019t have them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Applying it to all women is another generalisation.\u00a0Let\u2019s break it down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Most obviously, only 87% of women are completely straight (Bailey et al. 2016<\/a>), thus up to 13% can simply not care what men want.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then, not all straight women want a long-term partner. Many genuinely prefer being single and the modern world makes this very easy.\u00a0It\u2019s hard to put a number on it as many say they\u2019re OK being single but aren\u2019t actually, but I\u2019d wager some 5% is genuinely fine with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If about\u00a020% of men don\u2019t mind a more experienced partner, then about that many women will find partners among them.\u00a0Maybe more, as men who are into non-monogamy are perfectly happy to date more than one woman.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Finally, a large portion of men who do mind, will cave in in the end. They don\u2019t want to be lonely either. They might not like it but they\u2019ll do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That means that most women have no actual reason to worry about ending up alone. Thus, if we\u2019re honest, the argument should say:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

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Straight <\/em><\/strong>women shouldn\u2019t sleep around because <\/em>many of them <\/em><\/strong>will later want a partner, <\/em>many of those <\/em><\/strong>won\u2019t match with any of the men who don\u2019t care about their past, and <\/em>some of the other men <\/em><\/strong>will actually stay true to their resolve not to date them.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

At this point, you can see how women might just say: thanks for the thumbs up, we\u2019ll take our chances. Particularly if they\u2019re smart, fun and hot, and thus might have the first pick of the men who don\u2019t care.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But there is one more problem: using this argument makes you sound like you think you can tell women what they can and can\u2019t do. Women don\u2019t like that. Neither do men. Few of us humans like that. In fact, it\u2019s just immoral.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Thus, most of the women who will want a partner, still wouldn\u2019t want a guy who thinks he can tell them what they can and can\u2019t do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The sad truth is that most guys who say they\u2019d reject a woman with a history will never get a chance to do that because those women will reject them first.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

#NotAllExpectations<\/h1>\n\n\n\n

More generalisations, anyone? The Fit Stoic<\/a>\u2019s title states that \u2018Don\u2019t be a slut\u2019 is \u2018The Only One Big Requisite Men Expect from Women\u2019.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Don\u2019t you want your partner to be, I don\u2019t know, capable of secure attachment and honest communication, to find you attractive, to not be selfish or narcissist, to like similar things, to be smart, kind, responsible and independent, to be mentally stable, to have integrity\u2026 Should I go on?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Any and all of those things matter way more than the number of ex-lovers. Implying otherwise simply makes you sound like you don\u2019t know what\u2019s important in relationships. Women who do will avoid you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But I\u2019ll be charitable and assume that low partner number is just one of the things most guys want, not the main one. That could be a fair preference, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Peeling off the veneer<\/h1>\n\n\n\n

To answer this, let\u2019s consider the reasons some men use to justify their preference, and what they say about them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The show @Whatever is pretty much entirely devoted to the topic and this video<\/a> offers a quick summary of the main reasons. Think what these reasons tell us about the guy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Biology<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Men have an evolutionary interest in ensuring paternity and thus want to prevent women they have kids with from sleeping with other men.<\/p>\n\n\n\n