{"id":264,"date":"2023-07-06T10:55:04","date_gmt":"2023-07-06T10:55:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/simonfokt.org\/index.php\/2023\/07\/06\/how-logic-can-help-you-defuse-pointless-gender-arguments\/"},"modified":"2024-05-15T10:16:27","modified_gmt":"2024-05-15T10:16:27","slug":"how-logic-can-help-you-defuse-pointless-gender-arguments","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/simonfokt.org\/index.php\/2023\/07\/06\/how-logic-can-help-you-defuse-pointless-gender-arguments\/","title":{"rendered":"How Logic Can Help You Defuse Pointless Gender Arguments"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

We need to end the patriarchy and the discrimination of women now!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Are you kidding me? Feminism has gone too far, it\u2019s men who are discriminated against now, men are the victims!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Men are the victims?! What complete nonsense! It\u2019s women who are being harmed!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

No, men!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

No, women!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

No, men!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

How many such \u2018discussions\u2019 have you heard? Do they ever go anywhere?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

You can defuse them and turn them into something productive once you see that \u2018being discriminated against\u2019 is not a simple property but a three-place relation. That\u2019s some logic-speak for you. Let\u2019s unpack it with a neutral example.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n\n\n\n

Properties and relations<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

Let\u2019s say you want to buy a house. To make it more realistic for my fellow millennials, let\u2019s say it\u2019s in a rough neighbourhood because that\u2019s the only way you could afford it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Still, it\u2019s not too bad: it might stand between a noisy pub and a busy grocery, but it\u2019s a solid brick structure, it\u2019s spacious, cosy, and painted red all over. You like the red. You\u2019re cool that way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

These are all features of the house, but they are not all the same. \u2018Being red\u2019 and \u2018being of solid brick\u2019 are what we call properties<\/a>. Properties take one individual variable only: x<\/em><\/strong> is red. In our case, x<\/em><\/strong> is the house.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s easy to spot properties\u200a\u2014\u200ayou can say: \u2018The house<\/strong> is red,\u2019 end with a dot, and feel you said something that makes sense. Further, there is only one question you can sensibly ask here: what <\/strong>is red? The house<\/strong> is red.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Compare with: \u2018The house<\/strong> is located in\u2019 or \u2018The house<\/strong> stands in between.\u2019 You can\u2019t end the sentence there, right? It just doesn\u2019t make sense. That\u2019s because these are relations<\/a> which need multiple variables.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Being located in<\/em> is a two-place relation, because you have two places to fill: what <\/strong>is located? (x<\/em><\/strong>, the house<\/strong>) and: where <\/strong>is it located? (in y<\/em><\/strong>, a rough neighbourhood<\/strong>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2018Standing in between\u2019 is a three-place relation: x<\/em><\/strong> (the house) stands in between y<\/em><\/strong> (a pub) and z<\/em><\/strong> (a grocery). EZ.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Now, here is the catch<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

Our daily language only goes that far in helping us spot relations. You can say \u2018The house<\/strong> is spacious\u2019 or \u2018The house<\/strong> is cosy\u2019 and feel like you make sense, but that\u2019s an illusion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If you\u2019re moving in with your partner, it\u2019s spacious. If you have two kids and a dog, maybe not so much. Other potential buyers might not think it\u2019s cosy at all\u200a\u2014\u200ato them it\u2019s just cluttered.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Thus, these seeming properties are in fact two-place relations: what<\/strong> (x<\/em><\/strong>, the house<\/strong>) is spacious for whom<\/strong> (y<\/em><\/strong>, two people<\/strong>)?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, how is any of that important?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When you make decisions such as buying a house, you should care about what stands in each place of the relations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You wouldn\u2019t read an offer that says: \u2018The house<\/strong> stands in between,\u2019 and think: sure, that\u2019s enough information about the location<\/em>. And when you read: \u2018The house<\/strong> is spacious\u2019, hopefully, you decide to go and see if it is in fact spacious enough for your family<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n\n\n\n

Enough about houses<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

You can probably see where I\u2019m going with this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2018Being discriminated against\u2019 or \u2018being a victim\u2019 are like \u2018being spacious\u2019\u200a\u2014\u200athey seem like simple properties, but they\u2019re not. In fact, they are three-place relations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n
  1. Who <\/strong>is discriminated against? 
    <\/strong>The first place is the one we have no problem filling: You. Me. Men. Women.<\/strong><\/li>\n\n\n\n
  2. By whom? 
    <\/strong>We usually fill this place, but we\u2019re rarely careful about it. By men<\/strong>. By women<\/strong>. All women? Maybe by men in power<\/strong>? By women on dating apps<\/strong>? By people who adhere to social norms and pressures they were unreflectively brought up with<\/strong>?<\/li>\n\n\n\n
  3. How<\/strong>?
    The third place gets equally patchy attention. When your employer discriminates against you, it\u2019s in some specific ways: perhaps it\u2019s an unfair salary<\/strong> or a biased promotion system<\/strong>. It\u2019s probably not about unevenly split childcare<\/strong> or a greater chance you\u2019ll die at war<\/strong>.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n

    Each variable in the relation matters<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

    It matters massively, but all too often we overlook it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    When women <\/strong>(who<\/strong>?) talk about being discriminated against, they are quick to fill the second place of the relation. By whom<\/strong>? The patriarchy<\/strong>! Men<\/strong>!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    But although they have no shortage of ways to fill the third place (how<\/strong>? By limiting access to top jobs<\/strong>, passing discriminatory legislation<\/strong>, perpetuating rape culture<\/strong>), it often seems like those are just examples. In many discussions, they imply that, actually, it\u2019s every way<\/strong> (that matters).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    This, in turn, makes men rebel, because they feel that there are many ways<\/strong> in which they are discriminated against, too. Their lives are treated as more disposable<\/strong>, their skills are devalued in the job market<\/strong>, they are more likely to get in trouble at school<\/strong>, they experience more sexual frustration<\/strong>, etc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    But men tend to forget about the second place of the relation\u200a\u2014\u200aby whom<\/strong>? Yes, their lives are treated as more disposable, but is it women who make them go to war, join gangs or take on risky jobs? Did women create service capitalism which has little use for traditionally male skills?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Meanwhile, many women approach an average Joe<\/strong> as if he personally was the one by whom<\/strong> they are discriminated against in every way<\/strong>. As if he singlehandedly held the reigns of the patriarchy and decided to limit their access to jobs<\/strong>, erode bodily autonomy<\/strong>, and create the rape culture<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Some variables are not what they seem<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

    When you really inquire by whom<\/strong> we feel discriminated against, you\u2019ll sometimes find that what stands in this place are not even real people. It\u2019s our imaginations and fears.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Men feel pushed to take on the worst jobs and spend their lives providing for the family because that\u2019s what women<\/strong> expect of them (or worse: trick them into!). Except, at least in advanced economies, virtually no real women actually do. It\u2019s some imaginary women<\/strong> who need all this providing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Likewise, many women feel pressured by men <\/strong>and the patriarchy to live up to unrealistic beauty standards. But most of the time, real men care about this significantly less than the imaginary men<\/strong> created by the advertising industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Thus, often it only seems we\u2019re discriminated against by men <\/strong>or women<\/strong>. Actually, the sources of our misery are different: for example, an economic system <\/strong>which offers crap jobs for crap pay, just to produce crap we don\u2019t need but feel crap without.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Yet nine times out of ten we\u2019re fooled. We don\u2019t fight against our common enemies. We fight against each other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Is the argument real?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

    And thus we argue, never forgetting who <\/strong>is discriminated against\u200a\u2014\u200aMe<\/strong>! Us<\/strong>!\u200a\u2014\u200abut paying only patchy attention to the other two places: by whom<\/strong>? how<\/strong>?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Since we all look at the world through our own eyes, we tend to put more weight on the ways we <\/strong>are discriminated against. We see them as more important because they hurt us<\/strong>. And we all love to treat those by whom <\/strong>we feel hurt as a homogenous mass of evil villains, don\u2019t we?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Thus:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    I <\/strong>am discriminated against by some (possibly imagined) wo\/men<\/strong> in some specific ways<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    quickly becomes:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    I <\/strong>am discriminated against by all wo\/men<\/strong> in all the ways that matter<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    and eventually:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    I <\/strong>am discriminated against.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    And then the typical spat I started with begins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    In most cases, there is no real substance to such disagreements. Once you fill in the unspoken blanks, it turns out that both sides feel discriminated against by different people in different ways.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    The fact that women <\/strong>are discriminated against by the patriarchal norms and men<\/strong> who expect them to do more housework<\/strong>, doesn\u2019t negate the fact that men <\/strong>are often discriminated against by the dating culture and women<\/strong> who expect them to take on much more responsibility and rejection<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Neither does the fact that men <\/strong>are discriminated against by a culture<\/strong> which expects them to take more lethal risks<\/strong>, mean that women <\/strong>cannot be discriminated against by the same culture <\/strong>which fails to prevent rape<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    When the variables are unspoken or unclear, it seems like we\u2019re disagreeing. It seems like it\u2019s an either-or question: either you <\/strong>discriminate against me<\/strong>, or I <\/strong>against you<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Once we state our variables, the argument disappears. Surely, we can hold more than one thought in our heads at the same time:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    men <\/strong>are discriminated against by X <\/strong>in a way A<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    and also<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    women <\/strong>are discriminated against by Y <\/strong>in a way B<\/strong>.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

    We can accept that both are real problems and work on solving them simultaneously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Preventing discrimination is not a zero-sum game<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

    Naturally, anyone who wants to engage in some one-up(wo)manship and start listing all the ways <\/strong>men and women are discriminated against, will quickly find that there are still many more examples where women have gotten the short end of the stick.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    I know we don\u2019t like it, guys, but let\u2019s be honest, you and me. It sure seems like we\u2019re discriminated against a lot. Of course, it does\u200a\u2014\u200awe look at the world through our eyes, not their eyes. No wonder we see our pain better than theirs!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    But quite objectively, although the world is much more equal now, men will still run out of plausible ways <\/strong>in which they are discriminated against long before women do. That is true in liberal democracies and it is even more true in many other parts of the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    But it\u2019s not just the number\u200a\u2014\u200ait\u2019s the severity as well. If the way <\/strong>one person is discriminated against involves rape<\/strong>, physical assault<\/strong> or risk of death<\/strong>, it would be highly inappropriate for the other to start talking about being made uncomfortable at work<\/strong> or shouted down on Twitter<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    It just doesn\u2019t compare. And here also, often women have it worse. Men do get raped, beaten or killed by their partners, but nowhere near as often as women do. That\u2019s just a fact\u200a\u2014\u200aand facts, I hear, don\u2019t care about our feelings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Moreover, if you ask by whom<\/strong>? women are discriminated against, you\u2019ll pretty reliably find that it\u2019s by men <\/strong>or social and cultural structures developed by men<\/strong>. Meanwhile, ask by whom<\/strong>? men are discriminated against and\u2026 more often than not you\u2019ll also find it\u2019s by (other) men<\/strong> or social and cultural structures developed by men<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    But this doesn\u2019t mean that men\u2019s problems don\u2019t matter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    We can and we should treat the ways <\/strong>both men <\/strong>and women <\/strong>are discriminated against seriously and work on doing something about them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    The good news is that doing something about them is not a zero-sum game. We can solve more than one problem simultaneously and solving one doesn\u2019t mean we need to make another worse. In fact, solving one will likely help us solve others.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    For example, if men <\/strong>stop making women <\/strong>feel sexually threatened<\/strong>, judged <\/strong>and shamed<\/strong>, women <\/strong>will likely not have the need to make men <\/strong>feel so distrusted<\/strong>, invisible <\/strong>and rejected<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Likewise, if women <\/strong>stop making men feel like idiots for asking often honest questions<\/strong>, men <\/strong>will be more likely to really listen to what women <\/strong>have to say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    \n\n\n\n

    Argument defusal\u00a0toolkit<\/h3>\n\n\n\n

    We all get into stupid discussions where we talk past each other. If we took all the energy we spend on fighting over misunderstandings and used it towards actually solving our problems, well, we\u2019d be that much closer to solving our problems, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    You now have a new tool in your argument defusal toolkit. When you see a heated disagreement over who is discriminated against, just check if all the variables in that discussion are salient.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    If not, bring them up, examine them closely and check:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      \n
    • Are those people actually disagreeing or are they just talking about different things?<\/li>\n\n\n\n
    • Are the variables what they seem?<\/li>\n\n\n\n
    • Are they actually discriminated against by each other<\/strong> or by someone completely different<\/strong>?<\/li>\n\n\n\n
    • Are the ways <\/strong>they feel discriminated against comparable or is one much more serious?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n

      Try to get them to admit that the fact that they <\/strong>are discriminated against by someone <\/strong>in some way<\/strong> doesn\u2019t invalidate the fact that the other<\/strong> is discriminated against by someone else <\/strong>in some other way<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      Then perhaps politely suggest that the time they waste on arguing and fighting each other might be better spent on appreciating each other\u2019s points and working to address them both.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      This way, maybe we can finally stop arguing about discrimination and start getting rid of it.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

      We need to end the patriarchy and the discrimination of women now! Are you kidding me? Feminism has gone too far, it\u2019s men who are discriminated against now, men are the victims! Men are the victims?! What complete nonsense! It\u2019s women who are being harmed! No, men! No, women! No, men! \u2026 How many such […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":580,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[10,12],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-264","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-equality","category-virtue"],"yoast_head":"\nDefusing Pointless Gender Arguments: The Role of Logic<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Discover how logic can be powerful in defusing pointless gender arguments. 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